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It's a quote that actually raises several questions.
What place head knowledge or heart awareness?
A few people respond to a revelation 'out of the blue' - and I've known a few who then started attending 'church'. One attended for 15 years and has since spent some 15 years coming out again!
I've spent so many years in dead traditions but then came freedom and liberation from the slavery of legalism - but that was ten years ago. Why has it taken so long?
For those wanting a lead in to this conversation that has been going on here for a while, please read here.
Hi Pete,
Please here me, these are by no way definitive hammered into stone answers, merely one brother reaching out to another, wanting with all that is in me to continue to grow in the grace and the (TRUE) knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ.
I like what my brother Warren Litzman shared once, it was his understanding that ‘we ALL have to go wrong before we learn to go right’. Saying that to say this, because of the innate indelible residual imprinting within our soul, (mind-will-emotions) working wonderfully through the ‘knowledge of good and evil’ we have come to the solid conclusion it choosing to do things the ‘right way vs the wrong way.’ Into that soupy mix, I would ask, what about His Way, is that even a consideration, I don’t think so.
In my opinion the right way and the wrong way are one in the same, disguised and morphed into a blended mix of evil, through and through.
I do not know of too many that when they received revelation of His heart wooing them and then choosing to respond to his invitation to become part of His 4 ever family, aka being re-born, shortly there after finding them self learning from a surrogate, foster parent within some religious club.
It is my opinion that after Joseph died, after having his entire family brought to stay, live in Egypt, that any real substance to the reality of God actively being a part of their daily lives, God raised up another Pharaoh and brought the children of Israel into captivity, why, because they no longer knew Who’s they were or who they were.
Our birth-right and all that it encompasses has never been revoked, it is held in good hands, our Father, waiting for the fullness of time, e.g. Galatians 4:1-3 “NOW WHAT I mean is that as long as the inheritor (heir) is a child and under age, he does not differ from a slave, although he is the master of all the estate; But he is under guardians and administrators or trustees until the date fixed by his father. So we [Jewish Christians] also, when we were minors, were kept like slaves under [the rules of the Hebrew ritual and subject to] the elementary teachings of a system of external observations and regulations.”
I see these scriptures being most relevant to what has happened since the birthing of the church, Christ in us, the hope of glory, although fully received of the Father, heirs and joint heirs with and through Christ Jesus, as long as we think as a slave, Papa keeps us under the tutelage of the institutional settings until the appointed time of the Father for each and everyone of us!
Once again, these are very fluid in flux thoughts, not intended to become a new and missing but just discovered epistle to the church.
I trust this will provoke us both unto love and good works as we look to Him to breathe upon what might be mere abstractions to us.
Rich
6 comments:
Rich
It's a bit confusing trying to establish some of your thoughts. Are you saying that it is the knowledge of good and evil that is the cause of the problem? Are you saying that it is only when we recognise the tree of life that things begin to make sense? If So I would agree with you entirely.
I find your comments about receiving a revelation of the heart and then learning from a surrogate interesting. I look back on my journey where I have learned so much about why people believe what they believe. I would never have had this knowledge without being a member of two of these clubs.
I think we need to consider the place of the schoolteacher and the young children. Teachers have some basic knowledge - but what is often more important is their ability to relate to children. We are all different and we all see only part of the picture.
I agree with you that our birth-right has never been revoked. I believe that we have all been redeemed, but most people are totally unaware of what that means.
You referred to we [Jewish Christians] ... Are you suggesting that Paul was only writing to Christians? This is worth exploring!
What do you understand by 'church'? Are you suggesting that all that the 'churches' are teaching is bogus?
From my knowledge of people it seems obvious now that some people have a dramatic transformation while others might have questions for many years before that sudden enlightenment occurs - and yes it does have to be a sudden enlightenment.
My guess is that there might be an enormous difference between introverts and extroverts - that our motivation may be very different and that we need to recognise that we only see part of the picture - and this means that we have to live with apparent contradictions because of the differing perspective.
I suppose my basic question would be "Is there a place for both warriors and gardeners?" I can't get my mind around the concept of warriors, but who am I to say that Father is not using warriors?
It's strange writing like this because I honestly have no idea where this is leading. Hope you can make at least a little sense of it
Pete,
I see it this way, God would have eventually made the knowledge of good and evil known to Adam and Eve, but only after becoming fully alive in Him, ergo, the tree of life pointed to that foundation, of establishing within them a nature, it is my understanding they were created natureless.
The two trees pointed out that they needed a nature, choosing the knowledge of good and evil was what established them obtaining Satan's nature.
For those of us who have come fully alive (something that Adam and Eve were NOT) it still takes a revelation of what that encompasses, being re-born.
Yes we are ALL different and we all only see part of the picture. I would ask, what picture is that?
For me, what I see is that the One truth being revealed to the church is a revelation of the Father of our spirit, and in coming to see Him, we discover experientially that we ARE Loved.
In my opinion, extroverts vs introverts is merely discribing people after the flesh, we are no longer those persons, we are now defined by the Truth Himself as sons and daufgters of God-Saints Paul calls the re-born.
Our continued education is spirit taught, it has nothing to do with how we have been defined after the flesh.
I believe redemption is available for all men, but everyone is NOT re-born, unless one chooses to receive Him by grace!
In the beginning, Paul went to the Jews, but in Acts 28 he is through reaching out to the Jews and goes to the Gentiles.
His epistles are always directed to the believers.
No, I am not saying everything the churches are teaching is bogus, but I will say that the institutional church can not teach what the re-birthing is, because if they could/would the child of God would soon discover there is no longer any need for a foster parent.
I had a dramatic conversion as any I have ever heard of, yet it has only been within the past 10 years that it is all making so much more sense to me discovering I am LOVED of the Father.
"Is there a place for both warriors and gardeners?" I'm not sure I understand what you're asking here Pete?
Rich
I've hit a brick wall!
I've been trying to follow what you have been saying in your numerous and lengthy posts. I know I agree with a lot of what you are saying amongst the 'academic' questioning. I'm quite sure that theology has hidden the simplicity of the gospel (the primary way in which Satan deceives?).
I have been looking recently at some of the reactions of 'ordinary' people to The Shack. Some of the stories of how the book has released them from fear are a terrible reflection on parts of the institutional churches. Others can't bring themselves to believe that we really do have such a loving Father.
At the same time I recognise a 'shallowness' in much of the understanding of faith.
I'm only asking a few awkward questions that seem to be absolutely foundational for a deeper understanding.
What is the real CHURCH?
How much THEOLOGY do we need?
What is the story of life?
What is the PURPOSE of Life?
I would suggest that without meaningful answers to these questions we are going to miss the mark of what Father wants us to do (which I see as a simple and almost inclusive definition of sin).
I guess I've reached another plateau (or another stepping stone)- but I haven't yet been able to see who is here with me. Maybe it's time to rest in Father's love!
Pete
Hitting a brick wall, although painful can be a good thing.
What is the real Church? Here is a quote from the Naked Church, I have been reading this book by Wayne Jacobsen and have been greatly encouraged.
He is in this part discussing what true/real leadership might look like in this hour, I feel it may be applicable here to your question. "Because we own buildings, pay bills, and develop extensive programs, we have an institutional structure that we mistake for being the church. The church is the people who are living under Father. Those that help people develop that relationship are its true leaders."
Ho much theology do we need? I guess as much or as little as one deems important. As I am fond of saying, "It's a revelation, nit a seminar." What has become a fossilized static mind set is so many knowing so much and yet without the life (quickening) spirit breathing upon/in the words we read, memorize, sing etc, its but wood, hay and stubble. In Him we LIVE-MOVE and BE! The 'doctrines' that so many believe are a lifeless form as far as having any real living encounter with the Living God and Father. What is recording within the pages of the Bible are words that were life giving revelation of the Word Himself, ergo, the words put into ink on pages were only pointing to a reality that could NEVER be confined to mere Theology!
What is the story of Life? Life is pointing to the one who IS LIFE! Without a revelation and that being but the beginning of its flow into our lives,life is defined by our polluted and corrupted mind set-world views.
I am convincedif anyone is wanting to really know what Life is all about, humbly asking God or whomever we deem him to be, will come to SEE and KNOW...I have come that you might Have Life, in its abundance.
What is the PURPOSE of Life? Fulfillment, wonder, joy, moving amongst so many who are but dead men walking..being a living expression-fragrance of Him wanting to make His loving-living heart known to whosoever will!!
Just a couple of thoughts here Pete, what do you think??
I guess you have misunderstood what I had seen as the purpose of this dialogue. Maybe my analogy of hitting a brick wall was misleading. I've been through the pain barrier on a number of occasions, but the position is not one I would describe as painful. Let's just say that I've reached a plateau - a time to rest and relax and relate to a number of people who are currently being drawn together for a season before continuing their separate journeys.
I find Wayne's view of life exciting and encouraging and I believe that he and Brad have a very healthy view of the place of leadership. The church is the body of Christ but who is the leader? Anyone who assumes a role of leadership within that church is taking on a serious responsibility!
I have a relationship with an older brother that has grown enormously over the last couple of years, but who am I to think that I can do his job for him?
I have reached a point where I have my own answers to those questions as a result of a growing relationship. Those answers are not set in concrete. They are meaningful to me - they may not be meaningful to others.
I've reached this point as a result of being shown over many years now, something of why people believe what they believe (based on the theology of whatever denomination they might have been members of). I have also had the personal experience of being drawn away from a traditional church (Anglican) and spending some twenty years as a member of a Sabbath keeping Christian 'sect' and THEN having to reconsider just about everything that I had ever believed.
I'm absolutely convinced that it is a work of the Holy Spirit that is drawing many committed Christians away from the churches that they may have attended for many years. I have been on that journey since 1995. I don't have the answers but I have been able to draw together many of the questions that I have considered in recent years.
You asked for my thoughts. A good starting point would be "Food for Thought" which can be found at http://uk.geocities.com/oldpete66/food.html
I guess you have misunderstood what I had seen as the purpose of this dialogue. Maybe my analogy of hitting a brick wall was misleading. I've been through the pain barrier on a number of occasions, but the position is not one I would describe as painful. Let's just say that I've reached a plateau - a time to rest and relax and relate to a number of people who are currently being drawn together for a season before continuing their separate journeys.
I find Wayne's view of life exciting and encouraging and I believe that he and Brad have a very healthy view of the place of leadership. The church is the body of Christ but who is the leader? Anyone who assumes a role of leadership within that church is taking on a serious responsibility!
I have a relationship with an older brother that has grown enormously over the last couple of years, but who am I to think that I can do his job for him?
I have reached a point where I have my own answers to those questions as a result of a growing relationship. Those answers are not set in concrete. They are meaningful to me - they may not be meaningful to others.
I've reached this point as a result of being shown over many years now, something of why people believe what they believe (based on the theology of whatever denomination they might have been members of). I have also had the personal experience of being drawn away from a traditional church (Anglican) and spending some twenty years as a member of a Sabbath keeping Christian 'sect' and THEN having to reconsider just about everything that I had ever believed.
I'm absolutely convinced that it is a work of the Holy Spirit that is drawing many committed Christians away from the churches that they may have attended for many years. I have been on that journey since 1995. I don't have the answers but I have been able to draw together many of the questions that I have considered in recent years.
You asked for my thoughts. A good starting point would be "Food for Thought" which can be found at http://uk.geocities.com/oldpete66/food.html
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